EmXcore podcast Episode 7: Talking about why it is so important that the ICT sector becomes sustainable and what are the things we can change to achieve that?

In this episode we talk to Michael Oghia about why it is so important that the ICT sector becomes sustainable and what are the things we can change to achieve that.

Lisa:
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the EmXcore podcast. A podcast where we will invite customers, partners, or anyone of whom we think has something interesting to say, or has some interesting views on the internet and networking industry. Today, we are talking to Michael Oghia, director of external relations at SDIA, which is the sustainable digital infrastructure Alliance. We talk about why it is so important that the ICT sector becomes sustainable and what are the things we can change to achieve that? 

So, Michael, welcome to the podcast!

Michael:
Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here. You always do fantastic work here at EmXcore.

Lisa:
Thank you so much. How’s it going? 

Michael:
It’s good. I mean I’m obviously a big fan and I’m doing really well. I’m happy, you know, and SDIA is doing really well too, so that’s nice. So we’re in a good place. 

Lisa:
Sounds good. Can you introduce yourself, can you tell a little bit about yourself? 

He was the one that actually introduced me to SDIA, so frankly I owe EmXcore a lot. I’m really grateful for that connection. And I was also very fortunate enough to put together a guide with you, Lisa, on myths about refurbishment and how to promote refurbishment specifically among the Ripe community.

Lisa:
That’s so kind of you! Make sure that you read the article by the way, I’ve linked it here. So make sure that you check it out. Why it so important that the ICT sector becomes more sustainable? 

Michael:
Well, I mean, because it’s completely unsustainable at the moment. I mean, it’s the same reason why, you know, air needs to be clean, water needs to be pure. And our technology needs to be sustainable because at the moment it’s not. And if we want to keep building devices, which we will, if we want to keep building infrastructure, creating new devices, basically making everything connect to the internet, living in this massive digital world, we need to think about how the online is impacting the offline. And infrastructure is a really good point to do that.

I often compare it to a mushroom and, just bear with me here, a mushroom… You could also say iceberg that’s maybe a bit more.. But I like sticking with more of the natural things, mushroom comparison. 

Or, you know, like the mausoleum you know, is actually located under the ground and it’s massive, but you don’t really see that, you only see the part that is above the ground, the part that shoots up it’s spores. Same with an iceberg, you only see the part that’s sticking outside of the water, but you don’t see the big part underneath. And to me, if you’re thinking about this intersection between offline and online, nfrastructure is a great place for that. 

So if we’re trying to think about how we can make that infrastructure or the internet in general and technology more sustainable, focusing on the infrastructure is a really big part of that.

But then also thinking about beyond just hardware infrastructure and thinking about things like software, thinking about things like applications, how do we make them leaner? How do we make them more energy efficient and those sort of things. Those are all really important in order to help facilitate this transition to a more sustainable digital economy and really a technology that is inclusive of its impact on the environment and human communities as well. 

Lisa:
Yeah, exactly. Because if it’s not sustainable, we cannot keep doing it.

Michael:
Yeah. I mean, we will have to come down from our fossil fuel high at some point. And the crash is gonna be really hard. 

Lisa:
What, what do you think are the biggest challenges or the biggest, how do you say that the, like traps basically of making sure that we get into that more sustainable..

Michael:
Well, there’s a few things that come to mind.

The first one is that we need policy environments that support real changes that are needed in order to make, especially infrastructure sustainable. So there has to be political will for that. And before anybody starts dismissing me as being like, oh, that’s impossible, blah, bla Especially within Europe, there is a lot of political will to make technology more sustainable. It’s been encoded, enshrined rather in various digital strategies that have been released by the European commission.

The European greens are pushing this hard, which is fantastic. They’re doing excellent work, including by the way, one of the Netherlands amazing MEP, Kim van Sparrentak. She’s a young person, she is an MEP from the Netherlands and her, and many of her colleagues within the parliament, within the greens and EFA have been really working hard on this as have been the GroenLinks in the Netherlands to address things like mining and metals and its relationship to ICT etcetera. 

So there’s a lot of work being done at the political level to actually make this more viable. Specifically within the EU. So that’s one thing that needs to be done, you know, creating that enabling policy environment, what needs to be done to make infrastructure more sustainable.

Number two, is that we need to make the business case for sustainability. What do I mean by that? In other words, no matter what ideas we have, no matter what kind of systems we have in place, if we want that system to be sustainable, it’s gotta be economically viable. That is basic economics. And forgive me if I’m going into like a super capitalistic model here, but I mean it more in the sense that you need to demonstrate, or every company needs to demonstrate, that that sustainability is viable, that it’s worthwhile and that it’s actually economically beneficial. 

And a good example I use for this is with consumer products like shoes, if you invest in really good shoes, that can last you time, those might be more expensive, but you won’t have to replace them every year, every two years. Whereas like much cheaper inexpensive pair of sneakers, you know, they might cost you very few euros, but you might have to replace them more often, which means over time, you might actually be spending more money on shoes than have you just spent a little bit more in the beginning. I think the same kind of principle applies to our infrastructure and especially to things like maintenance, future proofing, making things last long term. We used to make things last. Why don’t we do that anymore? And if we make it last, then we can reuse it. 

We use to make things last. Why don’t we do that anymore? If we make it last, we can reuse it.

And that is exactly how for instance, EmXcore plays into this equation. How could we re-use, refurbish, extend the life cycle of something? That requires a business case. There’s a lot of opportunity for new business models. There’s a lot of opportunity for new, new entrants into this who could say like, “we have an idea for maybe how we can contribute to making things more sustainable. It’s a huge ecosystem. So next to political will and enabling policy, business case for sustainability is another thing that needs to be done.

And then the third thing I always say is that we need to think about the whole life cycle of our technologies and incorporate sustainability into design. As long as we are not doing that, we will continue to perpetuate this linear economy that we have. And it is absolutely, it is just so fundamentally undermining to our efforts to make the world better. Because we’re creating so much e-waste, we’re mining so many minerals, all of it just to be wasted. It’s, it’s really a shame. It’s a pity. 

Lisa:
You kind of stole my next question as well. 

Michael:

Oh, I’m sorry. 

Lisa:
About how much policy is a part of it all. Of course it is a big part of it, but also a big part of it is I think the change in mentality for people and for companies? Do you feel like that is already changing a lot and is it going quick enough? 

Michael:
Well, I’m actually gonna try and answer that question while also addressing the question you had about policy. Because the two kind of go hand in hand, because the more collective action there is calling for things like right to repair, calling for things like better, you know, greener data centers or a greener web, the more that people are demanding that with their wallets, the more that people are demanding that with their voices and their votes and that makes a significant difference. And the way that also businesses can be involved with this is to try and share, especially sustainable businesses like EmXcore or others that are working in sustainability. It’s really important that you demonstrate that. Look, what we need when we say enabling policy that, it’s like, what, what does that actually mean? 

Lisa:
Yeah. 

Michael:
What I mean is that you can say, look we have this idea. We know that it could be viable, but what we would really love is if it’s like with data center heat waste reuse, what we need is a subsidy so that we can actually purchase a heat pump, work with municipality to get that heat waste reused into district heating or into a local community or something like that. But that requires that subsidy.

So that’s a political tool that needs to be done, or maybe there needs to be some new incentives. Maybe there needs to be tax breaks. Maybe there needs to be some new regulation or new laws maybe that should be in tandem with the infrastructure providers. Not in a corrupt way, I mean in the sense of like, okay how can we do this collaboratively so that we’re actually creating data driven policy, inclusive policy, inclusive as well of how do we make sustainability something viable. 

And so if you were going back to this question that you asked about, what does this look like and how is it done? I mean, I think making sure that people are demanding this kind of technology, that’s what’s really gonna push the envelope. As long as people don’t care, nothing’s gonna change. But if people actually say, this is what we want, and they say that to the businesses, they say that to their representatives, specifically if we are living in a democratic society, then I think that that’s a good step forward, but that’s certainly not a panacea. It’s not the silver bullet. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done.

Lisa:
And it’s what you said, changing the people’s mindset and making them aware of how important it is is already a good step. And I think you can see a change already in general in how people think about like refurbished stuff or recycled stuff, vintage stuff. I mean vintage is hip.

Michael:
Oh yeah, vintage, antique, up-cycling

Lisa:
Yeah, exactly. You know, people used to think, refurbished or recycled stuff that is just stuff that nobody else wants anymore or it’s old and it’s not working, or it’s broken.

Michael:
Exactly and that is why dispelling these myths, like we did in that article is so important because if we’re now extrapolating that or applying that rather to someone like a business owner, that’s like, “well, we wanna save money, but we also want to do something that’s better, that’s more sustainable. What can we do? And so companies like EmXcore can come and say, well, you can actually have your cake and eat it too. You can have a really good piece of network equipment that also is being reused so you’re extending its life cycle. It works great. It’s secure. You know it does everything you need it to do, but you’re not actually just creating demand for this new product. You know, it’s already been mined, It’s already been processed. 

That’s a really good opportunity. And it’s a good way for us to cut down on e-waste. And on top of that, to me it’s just a really good way of reminding especially business consumers that you have to fight against marketing departments, like especially in big tech, because..

Lisa:
Don’t say it too hard. I’m doing marketing Michael haha.

Michael:
No, no, no, no, no you’re marketing in terms of raising awareness about a very good product. You’re not pushing a business model that is based on linear consumption. That is based on, okay, well you you’ve bought this new shiny thing last year let me give you the newest, shiny thing. That sounds like it’s a big upgrade, but actually it’s not. 

I think we have been conditioned to think that if something is new and the next generation it’s gonna be automatically better, which is not always the case

There’s very little improvement in performance. Like that’s the thing. I think we have been conditioned to think that if something’s new and the next generation it’s gonna be automatically better and there’s gonna be all these performance improvement. When in reality especially the way that things have plateaued over the technological development the same way many things have plateaued over the past like eight years or so, you can get incredible performance for the needs that you want with equipment that has been refurbished you know, reused and what not in a way that I think most people will be very surprised.

I think we talked about this in the article and some of the challenges that you all deal with. What is your experience when it comes to addressing some of the reservations of potential customers? Do you find that finding potential customers is actually harder than convincing them that what you offer is useful and worthwhile? Or is it more the opposite, where people know that it’s fine, but getting those new customers who aren’t already locked in with an existing,contract with other companies or something, that’s the harder thing. Like what, what, do you know what I mean? Like, what is more difficult for you? 

Lisa:
I would say there’s like a split in companies. You have the companies that are more flexible in terms of, oh yeah, that’s fine. We can buy whatever we want. And refurb is fine, and this is fine.” And there’s companies that are really, for lack of a better work, stuck to how they’ve done stuff for of course, years and years. You know, they know that they always buy X amount of stuff from a specific company. They always buy it new. They always do this. They even change it when it doesn’t need to be changed yet. You know, those kind of systems that are in place, but they’ve been in place for many years that you see that especially bigger companies have trouble changing those systems and habits. 

Michael:
It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Right? That’s a very innocuous way of trying to describe our entire climate crisis. That it’s like, we’ve been doing this, meaning many of our unsustainable practices, since the start of the industrial revolution, since mass production really took off after world war II You know, the post world war II era, it’s like, “that’s just how it we’ve always done it”. And the way we’ve always done it is terrible.

Lisa:
It doesn’t work. 

Lisa:
A lot of people don’t like change though. 

Michael:
I know and it’s difficult. I mean, look, I understand it is hard to change, especially as we get older or whatnot. It’s just, we’re used to certain ways of being, but what’s hard is that we have to change because otherwise we are, really…I mean, it’s not just like, “oh, we didn’t change. Haha.” It’s like this is our only home and we are polluting it in every way possible.

Oh wow, I didn’t mean for us to get so existential this morning. I hope that people start realizing that the choices that we make is impacting our lives and that is absolutely applicable to technology as well. And companies specifically, have a lot of incentive to change in terms of financial gains, ESG reporting, shareholders or stakeholders or, you know, customer demand for sustainability.

I mean, customers around the world are starting to demand sustainability. So there is increasingly a market for this, and there’s a lot of collective power. Especially small companies in my opinion in terms of collective bargaining say like, okay,” I’m only gonna prioritize, you know, sustainable companies. And I’m gonna get all of my other small company friends to make those same priorities. And I’m gonna work hardware providers to say like, look, we want a contract that’s gonna extend this many years. Not just, you know, for two to three years” I don’t know. I’d like to think that there’s power there. Because I think so too, you know, if people say, well we’re not gonna buy from you and that’s on mass, then they’ll say, okay, I guess we have to change this model. But you know, it’s easier said than done.

But thankfully there’s a lot of independent organizations out there like EmXcore who can, I hope, help take advantage of that? You know? Do you feel like there’s a bigger demand for the products that you sell?

Lisa:
Sure. Especially during the pandemic as well. It has to do with the chip shortages. The supply times for new equipment now it is insane. It just goes through the roof. So that also pushes companies that maybe weren’t looking into refurbished equipment, it pushes them to look into those options. Because they cannot wait a year and a half on their new supply.

Michael:
And that’s just the way it is. I mean, I don’t see the chip shortage changing anytime soon to be Frank. And so it’s actually kind of an ironic instance of not choosing delayed gratification. In other words, you could have what you need now, a better price, that’s better for the environment and you get it now. It’s like, what more can you ask for actually? Sorry if I’m so true and Sorry if I’m really on team EmXcore here, but it just makes sense. 

Lisa:
No, be on our team! 

Michael:
It just makes more sense.

I think it’s really important to capture the essence of those messages. To me reusing a device it’ll always be a better for the environment of using something new. You know even if, and I I’ve heard debates about this, like let’s say you could use an electric car or you’re gonna reuse someone’s old diesel car or petrol car. Which one’s better for the environment? And it’s actually still reusing the old petrol car because because most of the emissions of practically any product are embodied in its production, not in its use, even something like a car. And depending on how old the car is, you know, it could be very fuel efficient already, and that sort of thing. 

So the point is, and feel free if somebody’s listening to this to fact check me on this maybe I’m wrong, please, if I’m wrong about this please tweet me, but part of the issue is that it kind of depends on who you ask, but most of, especially when it comes to ICT most of the embodied carbon is embodied in the production phase. And that’s something between 70 and 80%. So maybe a car is a bad example because it directly burns fossil fuels, but if you think about a device, producing a new computer is always gonna be worse than using one that’s already been produced. 

When it comes to ICT most of the embodied carbon is embodied in the production phase, somewhere between 70 and 80%

Lisa:
And you can still upgrade it.

Michael:
You can still upgrade it, espacially if it’s something like enterprise equipment, which is literally made to be modular. Well at least sometimes. Increasing the modularity of devices, I think, is a really good way to improve its sustainability. You know if one component fails you just change that out and then there you go. You still have a really workable device. 

Lisa:
And it’s quicker as well. If the power breaks and you have a new power, you can just push it in. It’s an easy fix and you don’t have downtime. 

Michael:
But is that profitable? That’s the big question. How do you make it profitable? And if it’s not profitable, then I think we have to really ask ourselves a question. Like, why is it that we’re not only engineering our technology with unsustainable materials, but unsustainable business models as well. That to me is a huge thing.

And I didn’t mention that earlier, but I’ve kind of hinted at it, we have to have more sustainable business models. And that goes back to making sustainability economically viable, because this linear way that we’ve been doing everything, we can’t do it that way anymore. And we shouldn’t have been doing for the past 40 years. We need a course correction and companies like EmXcore are leading the flag in that. So I say kudos to you. 

Lisa:
Thank you. And thank you for this podcast. It was a pleasure having you. 

Michael:
Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak so much. I hope this makes sense to everyone. I hope it doesn’t just sound like I’m, you know, speaking because I like the sound of my own voice or something haha

Lisa:
I’m sure it doesn’t. 

Michael:
Oh, I hope not. If it does, tweet me and be like, Michael just shut up. And I’ll sorry about that and thank you for listening. Thank you for having me 

Lisa:
And for everyone listening, thank you for listening to this episode. Please let us know what you thought about it, or if you have any suggestions for the next episode, hopefully until the next one.